FACEBOOK DEBATE..
I couldn’t resist the temptation last week to comment on an individual’s Facebook status. The status was in a form of a question that exasperated me. And my comments to it seemed to ignite a Facebook thread debate. The status read, “Does church do to people what zoos do to animals… make them tame, safe and predictable?” Although it was an honest question, it needed to be semantically answered and altered. The term “church” should not have been used rather “religion” instead.
The comments after the question brought out of me a holy rage. The status caused a posse of disgruntled and embittered Christians to begin to complain about and mock churches and churchgoers. Unfortunately, there is an “anti-church” movement in our country. And we would think the atheist agenda or the satanic church fuels it but unfortunately that’s not the case, the movement originates from these very Christians.
Regrettably, “church hurt” serves as the main source of fuel to this agenda. Unchecked offenses, injuries and wounds have a way of causing people to justify their reasons as to why they never want to step inside a church. These people claim they are born-again and love God, but confess that they don’t want or need to associate, connect or link-up with other believers, especially those that attend a church.
The truth is that churches are filled with imperfect people. We all have the capacity to hurt, offend, injure, lie, disappoint and frustrate people. But when our focus is on God and not man, the Lord will, I turn, give us the ability forgive, encourage, nurture, and ultimately love – “which cover a multitude if sins.” (1 Peter 4:8).
I despise religion as much as the next person, and although religion can’t be religious without people, I’m not allowed to hate people, for it contradicts the character of Christ in me. Although it was the “religious church people” who had Jesus crucified, it was those very people in whom Christ died for. And it was Jesus, while being nailed to the cross, which said, “…forgive them, for they not know what they do.” And since HE is the “head of the church,” I can’t see myself being disconnected from the body. Doesn’t make sense.
Anxious to read your thoughts,
Pastor Manny
I deal first hand on a daily basis with people that are church skeptics because of past hurts and the ridiculous things that go on in some churches. Trying to explain why we need to go to church has lead to nothing but arguments, so I’m just left to pray for their change of heart. It’s up to us to live our lives as examples to those believers and non-believers who think church is unnecessary or even detrimental. We have to show people that there is a church (not just MHC but a body of Christ), that although we are imperfect, we love people, just as Christ loves us.
People will always have their opinions on how church is offensive, how it is good, how it is hypocritical, etc. We can’t judge them for that because it we all have fallen short and can’t cast a stone in this case. But there are times where we need to bring correction to a paradigm that attacks “church” as a whole. In this case, the whole church is being attacked which I personally think is not right.
There’s so much to say on this one but I’ll limit myself on just couple of thoughts here. First of all,yes! it is so antibiblical to alienate oneself from the rest of the people for God has commanded us to love one another!(John 13:34)and Jesus said that people would know that we were His by doing so (John 13:35)…and actually God commands us to love people regardless throughout the bible! even the ones who hurt us or did wrong to us, We are supposed to pray for them(matthew 5:44)so if we call ourselves as christians and we are not doing “what we preach” then what kind of God do we believe in? who are we kidding? Not only that but the lame excuse of not going to church because it’s full of hipocrites…I mean seriously?? I could tell you about that since when I was just a new born again believer and a church attendee all the people that I met in Pennsylvania were “christians” from their whole entire lives(I was the only new one back then) and all of them were pure true religious people all the way…not only that when I got married to my ex-husband _a christian_he cheated on me with a girl from my church and she was the grandaughter of pastors from both sides…and I could keep on going but my point is that I never stopped going to church even when it got very painful and tough for me I never stopped believing in the God that at that time I was getting to know for the first time in spite of people’s gossip and behavior towards me. God was my focus and He was showing me that those were religious, people who would make a fool of themselves, they would be the ones who talked the most and would love to show off but their actions reflected their reality and they didn’t even know that people like me a new born again believer would see them as they were thanks to God’s presence in my life…and that was ” my first impression” of what going to church was so I can’t stand when people and especially “believers” come and tell me that lame excuse because I lived it too and God showed me too that by those people I was being molded too!! I learned that God uses people to change me if I want to change and I learned that a lot of the things that once bothered me from people were the very same things that I needed to change!!!!
I believe that if someone has an encounter with God your perspective of “church” will change and you will know how important is that you will connect to those who God has placed in your life at this moment of your life to work together with as one body, to pray for them and with them, to learn from them in spite of nationalities, customs, if you have or not things in common etc that’s not the important issue but to know that God has called us to serve Him in unity with pure motives and as we seek Him truly he will use us to bring those who are lost out there and as we seek God he will pour out from His love so we can love one another. I know I have a loooooong way to go I’m yet learning to love (ha! at one point I thought I knew…I had no idea) but my honest prayer is that He can teach me and as I say it (everytime I say it) it hurts me on the inside because at least for me it’s not an easy thing to do at times but I’m getting there………
Many induviduals use the word religion synonymously with church. They don’t know tlhat the church is the body of christians.
Now for using the injuries etc, that have been caused by the priestly order, as a reason for not attending church.. If you was on the other side of the fence you would maybe understand the feelings of distrust, being afraid to trust your spiritual life to someone that maybe feeding your their lies and their interpretation of the Word. Pastor maybe posting a message of UNDERSTANDUNG where this person was coming from and giving them reasons to put their trust in God and not man, would be the better way to go.
@Alleda –
Thanks for your comment and it’s good to hear from you. You mentioned, “If you were on the other side of the fence you would maybe understand the feelings of distrust…” Well Alleda, I have been and still am on the “other side of the fence.” I obviously haven’t been a pastor my entire Christian life and I am submitted and accountable to a pastor as everyone should be. I am very familiar with the feeling of “distrust, offense and disappointment.” But those horrible experiences and feelings, as bad as they were, gave me no justification to disconnect from that local house – let alone quitting church altogether. I do agree that we all need to encourage people to put their faith in God and not man, but that can never be possible until people first know how to forgive the faults of others (whether laity or clergy). In other words, we cannot trust and know about that character of God until we see people the way God sees them.
Thanks again for your thoughts…
I agree totally with you Pastor, I am shock at times to hear the reasons behind people leaving the church. I feel that it truly shows who they really are inside and that all this time they have been performing religious acts. I pray that I never fall in becoming a performer but stay truly connected to the body of Christ.
Well Pastor I don’t really look at facebook at all only if anybody sends me something. we need to just focus on the word and don’t let the world get in your way. we need to understand that facebook can not get you saved the word of God does.
I guess we could come up with whatever excuse we wanted to if we looked hard enough to not serve God according to His standards and not our own. At the end of the day its not about us anyway its all about Him and people. If I were to write all of the hurt, disappointments, and let downs I went through from leaders in the church then it would take to long. I figure i’m no prize myself and I must offend people all the time without even knowing it, not to mention how much I offend God. Im thankful for Gods attitude of forgiveness, mercy, and grace. I just pray I can die daily so His charcter can live in me.
I know of this topic you speak of. I have read it and the responses. I personally know a lot of the people that have commented on it. Once I started reading it I wanted to go off. I have learned a lot over my last 3 years with MHC, and being under the wing of some great people in my life. I have seen the hurts of the people and of the church by being in the offices. I have experienced the hurt first hand being a part of the old church in which most of these comments are comming from. BUT, I am in complete agreement with MY Pastor. A holy rage came up inside of me too. I wanted to just start going at it with these people. I went and vented to my mom for about 1/2 an hour for her to get me to stop. She also agrees with you Pastor Manny. She is the one who turned me on to this debate originally. If for no other reason I wanted to say something to a specific individual for things they said to you. I have to stop I am getting frustrated now just thinking about it. Just so you know. Me and my mom completely agree with what you debated about on there. And I am holding my tongue. 3 years ago. That wouldn’t have happened. My pride would have gotten the best of me. lol.
It’s such a shame that these people even call themselves Christians. A Christian is one who follows Christ and imitates Him. In following Him and imitating Him we love all people and know through His word Heb. 10:25 25Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching.
Therefore if someone is saying church is not necessary and they bash other believers for it they are not truly following Christ. You can’t just choose which parts of His word you want to believe it’s all or nothing so… If you are not for Him then you are against Him. If you are against Him then that’s an anti-Christ spirit.
As I was reading what you wrote to Ms. Alleda, It reminded me of my own insecurities and fears I have with people. It is VERY hard for me to trust people and I automatically think the worst about people…. why it’s a defense mechanism. But I’m learning that ir-regardless of what people may “do” to me I still have a life to live. And you can’t live without loving. And you can’t love if you don’t trust. It hurts, yes, and NO ONE is perfect including yourself ( thats for everyone). If we trusts no one eventually we will end up with very lonely lives. Because it’s true your reflection of God can often be taken from the relationships you have, and if many of them haven’t worked out you’ll blame God, probably subconsciously… but He will never have your all unless you learn to trust Him….. and I am learning this more and more daily. The more I let go, the more I can tell Him, and the more I trust Him to take care of me.
I go to MIAMI HARVEST CHURCH because I love GOD and I love people. I want to learn more
about GOD and have found a church that truly teaches his principles.
There is no perfect person, especially me, so I have no right or reason to judge anyone.
I think the statement “church hurts” is a cop-out for the people who want to live their life for
themselves and not for GOD and HIS KINGDOM!!
I don’t think all church people are tame people. I believe that a lot of them are radical and they do things that really require a step of faith. As far as the church hurt goes I know a lot of people who stopped going to church because they were hurt. Sometimes you get hurt at work or in school or by your family and you get over it. I have learned when you hold grudges you are only hurting yourself. I think people should get over it. God forgave us so lets start forgiving others also. After all we are christians.
Church hurt? What is that? It’s a useless cloak disguising the very seed of eternal death. How long will the blind stomach abuse from the world in exchange for much less than our life is actually worth, yet incessantly and foolishly run back for more, just to receive the world’s reward? Let us come to our senses!
This is the ONLY testimony of True Church hurt:
Deity, who gave up a seat of royalty, then lived life on earth with the single purpose of salvation for the world, was finally scorned by the same world, lashed with whips made from leather and barbs, stuck in the head with a crown of thorns, beaten and mocked, then crucified on the same cross they were forced to carry. Even then, the right to judge the “Church-Folk, Pastor, and Hypocrites” wasn’t complete until that person prayed in Spirit and Truth for forgiveness of the very people that did not recognize the time, then still the person ultimately required the Father’s endorsement. It is clear that person who suffered True “church hurt” is endorsed because that person was resurrected from the dead, appeared to others, then ascended into heaven and the testimony about that person was prophesied before hand, and has lasted throughout the ages in power, signs, and wonders.
So, if your testimony even remotely resembles that one, please let someone else know as soon as possible! Otherwise, bring your concept of Church back into divine order, presenting yourself reborn as a living sacrifice unto God, and seek first the Kingdom of God and His righteousness, lest we all fall prey to the enemy’s crutch. This is the crutch: that the Gospel is a stumbling block, but now that we know the Truth let the Gospel first sanctify us so that we may prevent others from stumbling and be the source of their upliftment. Use judgment, but do not judge.
Folks…let’s expose the enemy and bring it to shame. This is a Kingdom issue and the Wisdom of God must be glorified here.
Church congregants imminently become disappointed when their spiritual lives are pursued vicariously through that of their spiritual leaders, unless we submit to understanding life through the filter of the Holy Spirit. What’s more, the enemy, which is self (carnal us, me, you, I, them, we), will leverage the disappointment to suddenly and violently abort pregnancy in the Spirit, killing a Word of God before it comes forth to shed light and disperse darkness. We know these are casualties of war in the Spirit.
Holy Rage vs. Righteous Silence? Indeed there is a time for both, but let it be led by the Holy Spirit. Rest assured, we must fight the fight and not shrink back so that the World no longer confuses Christ’s church with their own church – the church of self. The world is guilty of creating idols to suit their agenda and comforts. We are not. The world has edited the Gospel, and in likewise fashion is attempting to redefine Christ’s true church within the hearts and minds of His people. But rejoice! Oh Children of the most high, for this is impossible to do. Ignorance to the Truth does not and cannot affect the Truth. So hold on to the Truth though it may cost everything.
How can you be a born again believer but not go to church?!?! In order to stay connected with god you have to stay connected with the church. It’s amazing how people are to god.
I doesn’t make sense. But then I think I was once like them. People sometimes say things without really truly understanding where the root of it comes from.
This is so true I know that people in church are most likely to be of a religious spirit. I love being in the corporate gathering makes me know that I am apart of something that is much bigger than myself.
Well said primo. I have struggled with this for years, but the Bible is clear about not forsaking the assembly of the brethren…..and as believers we need to be under authority. Anarchy, whether in the spiritual or physical realms, is not fruitful.
I feel you Pastor! This is what we are up against in this world, people questioning religion and the motives of people involved. We are fortunate to have freedom of speech, but some people abuse that privelage. We know we have our work cut out for us in this region when we have people planting seeds in others with questions and statement like that.
In the past I have blamed my lack of desire to go to church on people and how they’ve hurt me. Reflecting on those more ignorant days, I can say that for me it was really just an excuse to justify why I really didn’t want to go, and that was because of the condition of my heart, coupled with my misconception of who my focus should be on.
My focus must be on HIM and His kingdom, not on man. We must always remember that man will fail us, as they are just as imperfect as we ourselves are. Often times we look up to others around us, pastors, mentors, teachers etc. and there is nothing wrong with that, however, we should never put them on a pedestal in our lives, that’s when we position ourselves for hurt and disappointment.
Personally I have been disappointed with people that I love and who I continue to love, respect and even to the extend of giving my life for them. And I think that the people of the church, not the church (which is Jesus), but the people will hurt you and I think that is the first test of faith for everyone. How much are you willing to give up of yourself? the pride? the hurt? How much are you will to give up to continue to grow, discover and live a life in Christ? Personally if it wasn’t because I am able to be in God’s presence and release to Him my burdens, hurts and disappointments. I don’t think I could have make it. His presence, those intimate times with Him makes all the differences in my life.
All I can say is we as the church has a lot of praying to do. We can not be silent we have to speak out for the Kingdom of God. I can understand to be hurting but not to turn our back againts God. When we are hurting that’s when we need the Healer. Saying we don’t need church is saying we don’t need Christ.
Anti-Church is Anti-Biblical (evidence) Hebrews 10:25 “We should not stop gathering together with other believers, as some of you are doing. Instead, we must continue to encourage each other even more as we see the day of the Lord coming.”
And even when we are hurt and/or offended we are commanded to “love each other deeply” because love covers a multitude of sin (1st Peter 4:8)
And when we bear with one another in love, having patience and being able to over look others faults, we will have the perfect bond of unity (Ephensians 4:2-3)
I wrote this down a long time ago and feel it applies.
Everything that has a purpose has a house.
The executive branch of our government has a house, the White House. The representative branch of our government has a house, The House of representatives. In the south you will find in the country a hen house, if you look a little further you may find an out house. Barbie and Ken have a house a doll house. Even rover and fido have a house, a dog house. Last time a checked, we had a purpose. So get in your house. Be there!!!
You nail it by saying people confuse Church with religion. Religion is nothing…
Church is the body of Christ, where every member (people) has a function, and by the collective “work” of each one of us we will get to the point where the image of Christ is generated in us.
That implies that we will have to be offended, hurt, mistreated…
In the end of the day the only reason we get offended is because or flesh is still alive, and the Holy Spirit will use others to reveal that to us so we can crucify it. The problem is that dying on the cross is painful, hence the easiest way is blame others and strategically find the closer exit door…
People will always find a reason on why church is not for them. Unfortunately it comes at the expense of all church goers. Church hurt is tough but I always remember why I do what i do. Even though it has happened to me and I am sure I have caused it for others. But it is tough and I move passed it. On another note, I too despise religion, and I constantly check myself to make sure I don’t go through the religious motions. Great Blog. Very true!
It was very irresponsible and dangerous for that person to post their personal opinion about church on Facebook because he can cause people to go astray and outside of God’s will for their lives. The Bible warns about scattering the sheep so I pray that God deals with the heart of the person who posted it and may he repent and ask the people for forgiveness. Also, a good reason to go to church and be with other believers is because iron sharpens iron.
Unfortunately, this is a fulfillment of end time prophecy, when deception will become greater and more blatant in the last days. Even the very elect will be deceived. We need to love and pray for them.
Yup we just gotta love them. If God loved us enough forgive us and save us from the death we deserved than who are we to hold judgment and hatred? We gotta love them all.
There is definitely a huge difference between religion and “Church” and those adjectives, “safe, tame and predictable” certainly do not describe true disciples of Christ. This journey is not for the faint-hearted and weak-kneed…it requires stamina, “sticktuitiveness” and resilience. When we received the Gospel of Jesus Christ, it was with instruction that we would face test, trials, and tribulations and we made a decision to go for it. That is why we are encouraged to “endure hardships as good soldiers” or that our race is likened to that of an athlete (II Timothy 2:3-5). Both soldiers and athletes have to train, not only their bodies, but their minds…they have to be mentally able to keep on pressing even when they may face defeat, always looking toward the finish line. So when we face the tests, which, by the way, includes the hurts, disappointments and frustrations of broken relationships, we cannot, we must not bail out…we must endeavor to stay the course!!
Like you said, church is different that religion. I believe the problem really arises because, in many occasions, Christians dont know the word of God and dont seek for understanding and just accept things that are said. We need to know the Word and know well and they need to seek wisdom.
I believe when we become familiar with who He is in our lives we open doors to make church and our involvement in the body a religion.
I like this blog because it talks about how people disconnect from the church so fast. Because of what they here and they say that they are saved and know about the glory of God but they turn away for what they here.
Everything in our life is based on how we relate to the corporate invironment. It is our source, from it we gain our insite and teaching on God. How we should relate to Him and how He relates to us. It challenges us to go to hieghts were we have not gone. It is where relationships are strenghtened. So many things to list…
Anything Separated from it’s source will ultimately perish…
It’s unfortunate that these people feel that way but I know where I belong and it’s in HIS house. I love the body even when it hurts me. Since I know that we are imperfect people serving a perfect God. Iron sharpens iron so I will live out my life serving our Lord and HIS people which will be my people.
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